You first watched Lynda La Plante’s ITV series Widows as a 13-year-old in 1983. Do you think it’s harder for people to overcome stereotypes – as the women in the series and your film do – in Brexit Britain than in Thatcher’s Britain?
No. Nothing much has changed at all. I don’t know what has happened but we have taken two steps backwards. Nationalism absolutely has a part to play. The day after Brexit, my mother went to her favourite high-street shop. She had a new credit card with her and was struggling to remember the pin. The guy behind the till said: “It’s four digits in this country.” My daughter was with her at the time and said: “Granny, why didn’t you say anything?” She replied: “When they go low, we go high.” But the day before Brexit you wouldn’t have even thought about saying that. Apparently, you’re allowed to now.
Have you personally experienced more racism since Brexit?
Every day, mate. Yes, of course! Wolves come in sheep’s clothing. You deal with it. You have to or you go mad. So long as you put one foot in front of the other, you’re good.
You’ve spoken about how audiences watching Widows seem to welcome the chance for some catharsis; that they seem paralysed in the current political situation. How can they seize agency?
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We really do have the power. As individuals we don’t, but as a collective, absolutely we do. We can change the course of events. Sometimes we just need a reminder – and cinema is one of those tools that can actually do that.
Do you think Widows is getting the acclaim it deserves?
I don’t know. I don’t expect it anyway. If it comes: fantastic. If it doesn’t: whatever. It is what it is.
You’ve said you think it might be being misunderstood by some male film critics …
It depends if you’re sensitive enough to understand what other people go through, if you’re a male white critic. It’s one of those things that’s kind of obvious to me, maybe not to others.
A friend of my wife said to her husband: “Let’s go see Widows.” And he said: ‘Oh, is it only women who are starring in it?” And she said: “It’s got Liam Neeson.” And he said: “Oh, OK, I’ll go then.” So we’re still fighting against nonsense. I mean, how often, as a woman, did you project yourself on to heroes such as John Wayne or Sean Connery? That men struggle to even think about doing that is incredible.
Is a lot of the conversation about progress hot air?
Look, if I were brought up differently I would think differently. It’s about putting these debates into the mainstream and then being absolutely open and honest. Truth will always prevail – if I didn’t believe that, I wouldn’t be on the phone to you now. And that’s why we need good journalism rather than journalism that’s only for certain people. I went to CNN the other day, I looked around the desk: where were all the black people? If a scientist were trying to carry out a fair and logical experiment, they wouldn’t just use a part of the population. The conclusions would be quasi. You have to take on all possibilities and then come to a conclusion, and that’s the only way we can have a logical debate. How anyone would think we could have that without everything on the table seems impossible – but we do so gladly. Because the people with positions of influence do that.
Well, yes. As an artist you have your path and that’s fine. And sometimes the world won’t agree with you and that’s fine. I’m here hopefully for a little while and will do my work. I’m just telling a story about four women trying to get their shit together, about the environment in which we’re living, in a way that’s not high heels and handbags, that’s about human beings and full-on conversations.
Yet I can’t remember if there has ever been a movie about a gay person who is a detective or the lead in a romantic comedy who doesn’t have a problem with their sexuality. How is that possible? Certain people of power and influence in the industry are gay yet would never think about making a movie like that. What does it say about the worldview they’re helping maintain? I’m not pointing fingers – I’m just saying that if we see two men or women walking down the street holding hands, we’re not even gonna blink. But if it’s on the screen, apparently it becomes thunderous.
Was the Academy overeager to demonstrate their racial inclusivity by picking Kevin Hart to host – and ignoring his record of homophobia?
Well, that’s all to do with popularity and their needing viewing figures. But obviously someone made a mistake.
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